Legislature(1997 - 1998)
01/29/1998 08:05 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HJR 4 - LIMITING TERMS OF STATE LEGISLATORS CHAIR JAMES announced the next item up was HJR 4, "Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to terms of legislators," sponsored by Representative Therriault. Number 0224 REPRESENTATIVE GENE THERRIAULT, Alaska State Legislature, read his sponsor statement: "HJR 4 proposes to limit terms by limiting the number of regular legislative sessions a person may serve. The resolution proposes that a person may not serve consecutively more than 12 full regular sessions in the legislature. A person many not again serve in the legislature as a result of an election or appointment to fill a vacancy until at least two consecutive regular sessions have elapsed. In addition, when tabulating the number of sessions served, special sessions shall not be counted nor shall time served as the result of appointment to fill a vacancy. "Alaskan voters demonstrated their desire for congressional term limits through 1994's ballot measure number 4, which passed by a margin of 62 percent. Alaskans have also expressed support for term limits on the municipal level with many communities adopting some form of term limits for local elected officials. HJR 4 will now give Alaska voters the chance to change the state constitution to limit terms of state legislators. "Term limits are a positive legislative reform, guaranteeing that new legislators are elected along with new ideas. The popularity of term limits indicates that a majority of our citizens do not prefer career politicians representing them. Term limits will also level the playing field for challengers facing long-term incumbents whose power is oftentimes derived primarily from seniority. "Placing a constitutional amendment limiting the terms of state legislators on the ballot is a measure, that in my opinion, is long overdue." Number 344 REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT read the sectional analysis: Section 1, amends Article II, Section 3 of the constitution by limiting a person from serving more than 12 consecutive sessions and places the stipulation that the person may not serve again until two regular sessions had elapsed. Section 2, exempts periods served during the interim, or between sessions. We did not want there to be any ambiguity that we were called back to a special session, that should be counted as one of the regular sessions. In addition, periods served as a result of appointment to fill a vacancy would also not be counted because it may be only part of one of a regular session and we wanted to make it clear that that would not count toward the count of twelve. Section 3, regular sessions served in the legislature before the convening of the first regular session of the Twenty-Third Legislature would be considered in the calculation for term limits. When this measure was considered before, this language was added in on the House floor so it would basically apply the measure retroactively so that a person that had served 15, 20 years, or 12 years would not necessarily get another 12 years before being limited. Section 4, places the proposed amendments on the ballot at the next general election. Number 0446 REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT pointed out two fiscal notes. The only cost associated is $3,000 to put the measure on the ballot. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said the National Federation of Independent Business of Alaska (NFIB) did a survey of its membership, 76 percent supported term limits. Another question asked was whether the limit should be placed at no more than 12 consecutive years, the support was 69 percent. Number 0501 CHAIR JAMES asked Representative Therriault if the term limit is 12 regular sessions, which is six years. There is a first and second session, which is considered regular sessions. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied no. A legislature is comprised of two regular sessions. One hundred twenty days [incorrectly stated 121], is one regular session. CHAIR JAMES said you cannot serve more than 12 years, that would be six years. Number 0562 REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT agreed they cannot serve more than 12 years, It would not be six years because there is only one regular session in a year. He indicated constituents view their time in Juneau as time in the legislature and do not differentiate between the bodies [House or Senate]. CHAIR JAMES asked if this would be retroactive. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said it would be retroactive starting with the Twenty-Third Legislature, the question would go on the ballot this year. For example you could have somebody who has already served 12 years be elected to the Senate, the term limit kicks-in and now they cannot take the seat they were elected to. This allows them to fill the four-year term and then everything would kick-in four years after the date. Many states had a period of time that elapses to take care of that question. Number 0658 CHAIR JAMES said everything counts before the Twenty-Third Legislature, since she served for six years she would have four more years, or would it be ten. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT agreed it would be four years, retroactively, she would have only served ten years so she would have two more years in which she could serve. CHAIR JAMES stated that would preclude her from running for the Senate seat which will be up in two years. She said, "... anyone that started when we started, that person then could run for one Senate term and then they would be done." She indicated it doesn't make any difference whether you spent the time in the House or Senate. Number 0764 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS said suppose you spent five years in the House and then were elected to the Senate, which is a four-year term, that would put you at fourteen years or seven sessions. Would that person then be precluded from running for the Senate? REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied no. Subsection (a) allows a legislator to move to the Senate, serve the term, and serve more than the twelve years. He referred to page 2, line 3, "Notwithstanding (a) of this section, a person may complete a new term to which elected if the person has served consecutively during no more than eleven regular sessions." REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS referenced the NFIB poll which indicated there were certain terms they found more acceptable than others. He asked if this poll reflected only Alaska. Number 0825 REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied the questions listed are the way it was put to their membership. He did not have the number of respondents. Number 0849 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS indicated 12 years seems like a long time for a citizen legislature. He asked if there were other times that NFIB found more acceptable, or if they just had the two choices. Number 0864 REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said he believes this is the way the section was worded. Twelve years was derived earlier in shepherding this legislation through the House. He indicated there are some people who believe a shorter period would be adequate. Some people believe in 16 years. He tried to strike a balance with the concern of rapid turnover which increases the influence of staff, of lobbyists, and control of the administration, and people in the state agencies. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said he tried to strike the balance between how people viewed the number of years that would be adequate. He indicated, if a person stayed in the House of Representatives, they would have chance at being the speaker. He believed, within 12 years, they could prove themselves, a person that is elected that has not served on a city council, or perhaps on a board of directors, can come up to speed and be very effective. Number 0957 REPRESENTATIVE ETHAN BERKOWITZ said, "In the United States Constitutional Amendment, it is sort of similar to something else we are looking at." He believes HJR 4 divides Alaskans into two classes, one that can run for office and one that cannot. He asked if there were equal protection problems with this. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT did not believe there were equal protection clause problems, however, there are limitations. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked if it had been challenged on those grounds. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied there were a number of term limitations in the nation. He did not believe there is a legitimate constitutional equal protection challenge. Number 1000 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked if that would be true of any other amendment that would divide Alaska into two classes. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied he did not believe so, that is the way that our government has been set up to allow this. That issue was not brought up in previous committee hearings. Number 1035 CHAIR JAMES asked if term limits of the United States Congress, for senators and representatives, were determined to be unconstitutional. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied yes. CHAIR JAMES asked if any other states, that have applied term limits, have been challenged in the court. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied there are a number of states that have been challenged. He indicated those working their way through the courts are believed to be found to be constitutional. Number 1086 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN referred to the sponsor statement. He said the voters approved 62 percent for congressional term limits and noted municipalities expressed their support. He asked if this had been researched. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied he did not do a statewide poll, he polled his own constituency. He said, "I take it that the number of municipalities that actually wanted (indisc.) and assembly, is an indication that people in the state of Alaska are supportive of the concept, and certainly the statewide vote on the congressional terms, although that mechanism would not be successful. Congressional terms is an indication that the population is supportive of the concept of having a turnover in elected officials." REPRESENTATIVE IVAN asked if a person wanted to run again in the future would that person have to wait two years. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied only two years. REPRESENTATIVE IVAN asked would that person start with a clean slate. Number 1165 REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied in the affirmative. He said this is not a brick wall, it is considered a speedbump. A person could still have a long career in politics if their voters wanted to return them to office. He wanted the voters to see that someone else can fulfill the function and maybe fill it even better than the previous legislator. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS said while he served on the Kenai Borough Assembly he kept asking for term limits which his colleagues did not like. He indicated approximately 80 percent of the people that voted were in favor it, those who vocally opposed it are no longer in office. REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON said he was the author of the charter amendment that limited terms for the Juneau Assembly to a total of three terms. He said some people characterized it as a loophole, that you can sit out and can come back. Part of the discussion was that it creates a situation for choice. He believes the same experience happened in California, California courts may have just tossed out term limits. Number 1412 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON stated you have somewhat the same situation in California where you have seat-swapping. People would hit their term limit, run for mayor, and then come back and start over. He believed HJR 4 might be encouraging that same situation. He asked Representative Therriault why he decided that a person could serve for 12 years, sit out for two years and come back. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT responded he did not want to preclude someone from serving again. He said amendments could be offered to consider the length of time, maybe two years is too short, not everyone has the opportunity to swap back and forth. The 12-year bar was to prevent the clock from running on the House side. He indicated a person can run for the Senate and swap back and forth to the House, two people can hold seats in the same Senate district. CHAIR JAMES stated she knows people want term limits and campaign finance reform and are not happy with the general concept of government. A legislative staff person has experience and is ready to hit the ground running compared to someone who has not worked for a legislator. Chair James said, "Why don't we count staff time because you are very influential in doing things down here [in Juneau] during that period of time and you don't need all the learning experience because you already have it when you get here." Number 1669 CHAIR JAMES indicated she would support HJR 4 but has mixed feelings because she does not believe it is in the best interest of the state to curtail the decisions of the voters in the respect that they might lose a good legislator and get a bad one. It already restricts who can afford to run, especially young people who have families. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said we currently have term limits for our governor and term limits for the president. He said you hear no clamoring that the people's right to elect the president to a third consecutive term is a bridge done fairly, or the same argument for governor. CHAIR JAMES said she was not in favor of dumping the governor out in eight years either, she indicated Alaska usually dumps them out in four years. Distress in agencies causes chaos and costs extra money. She indicated there are people who are not willing to serve long-term because they know they are only going to be in Juneau for a short period of time. Number 1820 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said he heard people complain about two term limits, particularly after President Reagan served there was a big move about repealing the constitutional amendment. He counted only three members in the 40-member House that have served more than 12 years, only one would fall inside this amendment. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT replied we do have a healthy turnover in the state. He indicated the turnover in the Senate in the past ten years is 85 percent. The turnover in the House is 90 percent. He indicated these figures do not calculate the person who left the House and went to the Senate, some legislators gather up seniority and clout, maybe it gives them a little more power than someone who is new. REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG, Alaska State Legislature, testified as cosponsor to HJR 4. He said Representative Therriault did an excellent job of crafting the need for balance on this issue and asked for the committee member's support. Number 1940 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY made a motion to move HJR 4 from committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON objected. He suggested holding HJR 4 until the next meeting to let the idea simmer. CHAIR JAMES stated it was discussed as it affects the state, it will be thoroughly evaluated in the Judiciary Committee from a legal standpoint. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON withdrew his objection. Number 2024 CHAIR JAMES stated without objection HJR 4 moved from the House State Affairs Standing Committee.
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